Carrie: Hi, and welcome to the Vocal Fries Podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination.
Megan Figueroa: I’m Megan Figueroa.
Carrie: And I’m Carrie Gillon.
Megan: You know, every time we start a podcast, I get the nerves. Because I’m like, “We’ve been doing this for like almost 2 years, and I still don’t know how to start a podcast.”
Carrie: It’s interesting, I no longer get nervous. I mean, sometimes with the guests I do, because I don’t know them, and like… But for this stuff, no.
Megan: Well, I’m getting… So, I feel like I have to go to therapy and talk about how anxious I get about talking to new people because of the podcast. But the funny thing is, is that everyone has been so kind [crosstalk] that we’ve talked to.
Carrie: Yeah, yeah.
Megan: I keep getting this reinforcement that we managed to find these amazing people, and they’re all so awesome and so kind. And yet of course anxiety’s always like… But remember that one bad time. But there was no bad time. [crosstalk] [inaudible]
Carrie: [inaudible]. Yeah, There’s been no bad time.
Megan: If there were going to be a bad time, I think both… One of us would think ahead of time, “Oh, maybe this is a bad idea.” [crosstalk]. Yeah. Oh, which we have.
Carrie: We have pretty good… Yes.
Megan: We have done [crosstalk] secret.
Carrie: Yes.
Megan: That’s a secret. We’ll never say.
Carrie: Yes.
Megan: But we seem to have a very similar judgment and have stopped that before it even happened a couple [crosstalk] times, so.
Carrie: Yeah, yeah. So, I’m not that worried about it. I do get nervous though, not because like, I don’t think I get as anxious as you do. But I do get a little bit of anxious for that, for speaking to a new person. But it’s just more like, “Am I going to say something bad?”
Megan: [inaudible], right. Yeah.
Carrie: It’s not so much that it’s like a new person, but more like, I’m just going to say something stupid, because I don’t know them yet. I mean it’s…
Megan: Or I think it’d be like, I get it. You’re like, “Am I going to just going to be so white today?”
Carrie: I mean, there’s only so much I can do about that. I try.
Megan: No. But I… Yeah. I was definitely thinking about it, especially with this episode, because we talked to Nicole Horseherder, which it’s very exciting. About Navajo. As I knew it for so long, and I just feel so lucky to be a part of stories that she wishes to share. I mean, it is just listening to the rough cut a couple days ago. It’s just like, we’re really lucky that people are sharing these really intimate details, [crosstalk] or stories, or feelings with us.
Carrie: Yes. Absolutely.
Megan: So, that’s why I’ve been thinking about our guests lately. And we just recorded another episode that people won’t hear for like 2 months, but it was also another great guest. So, it’s like…
Carrie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Nicole is really great. And I’ve known her for like 20 years. Well, more than 20 years actually. So, I knew she would be good.
Megan: Yeah. Yeah.
Carrie: But, yes. It was… She did still tell us things that I didn’t… I’d never heard before, which was awesome.
Megan: And she talks, and I think this is important. She talks about water and our relationship to water. And how mine and your relationship to water is going to be so different from hers.
Carrie: Yes.
Megan: I’m glad that our listeners will get to hear that. Because water is such an important issue right now. Ever since like the Dakota Access Pipeline, I think, a lot of people have been thinking more about it, at least in the US, so.
Carrie: Yeah. As a Canadian, we’ve been thinking about it for a long time, because it’s honestly one of our fears; The United States will take over Canada to take our water.
Megan: Oh, listen. Probably. I don’t know.
Carrie: I don’t know. And we really do need to listen to other people.
Megan: Oh, yes.
Carrie: Like other cultures when it comes to these things. Like why is water so important? Yeah. We can talk about it in like, life or death way, but it’s… There are other ways of thinking about it, so. So, that was really great.
Megan: Anyway, I think we have some people to thank.
Carrie: We do. So, we have 3 new people to thank. New patrons to thank. We have Laura Montenegro.
Megan: Sorry, I just hear names on Twitter, or like recognize names from Twitter or whatever.
Carrie: Oh, cool. Yeah,
Megan: I just think that that’s a great name.
Carrie: I mean, yes. But also Kathy Davies, and a former guest, Nicole Rosen.
Megan: Oh!
Carrie: Yeah.
Megan: Canadian Fries.
Carrie: Yes. Canadian, French Canadian Fries. Yes.
Megan: Yes. Well, thank you.
Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s like the fourth or maybe fifth former guest who supports us now. So, that’s even more amazing.
Megan: Yeah.
Carrie: But, and we also want to remind people, if you want to support us, you’ll help us if we make it to $300 level pay for transcription. Which I would really love to do, [crosstalk] because it’s very important, but also I am not good at it, so.
Megan: So, Important. I mean, you don’t have to be, okay. You’re good at so many other things. Just wanted to let you know. Okay. Thank you.
Carrie: Thank you.
Megan: You’re welcome. Oh, I want to be a little salty before we get into the interview.
Carrie: Please.
Megan: And that was… I want to be salty about the fact that I tweeted something beautiful from the Vocal Fries Twitter on National Grammar Day. And I’m not surprised we got shit, because it went like not viral, but enough people liked it that it was getting around. But so, I tweeted on #NationalGrammarDay. Remember that telling someone they have, “Good grammar,” probably doesn’t mean what you wanted to. It serves to reinforce racist and classist ideals of what makes someone, “A good user of a language.” A concept that ultimately serves to oppress and demean.
And this motherfucker come on to our Twitter and said that, blah, blah, blah. What did he say? Basically, the grammar’s too good. And like, do you… Funny how when people try to say stuff like this, they actually use good grammar. Like, what the actual fuck? So, to be someone who opposes like this kind of how they would call grammar Nazis. If we’re trying to be like, “No, don’t be like that.” We have to use, “Bad Grammar.” Which makes no sense. It like undermines his point, I think.
Carrie: I mean, why you’re using the grammar that you have, which is totally whatever.
Megan: Yeah.
Carrie: It’s fine.
Megan: Yeah, yeah.
Carrie: Just like any other grammar is fine. And then he… And then…
Megan: And then he complained or mentioned. Oh, well, at least… or they didn’t even split the infinitive or something like that.
Carrie: Right. And I was like, “What?… Which Infinitive could have been split?” And then, the one he was talking about, you had to move the adverb from one clause to another.
Megan: Yes.
Carrie: So, he’s like completely messing with your… what you had said. It made [crosstalk] no fucking sense.
Megan: Oh, Yeah. It made no sense. And I would just like to say that it would’ve made me an asshole, if I had done anything to my grammar to write that. Like if I had… I mean, it seems like he wanted me to sound like some sort of idea he has in his head of someone who has improper grammar. [crosstalk] Which is so fucked up.
Carrie: Yeah. I’m wondering if he expected you to use like, AV.
Megan: Well, probably, because he is an asshole, and he probably associates.
Carrie: Yeah. I mean, I know I’m putting sort of pushing, putting this on him, but…
Megan: Well, he did it to himself.
Carrie: I don’t think I’m totally out of line. I think that is [crosstalk] where he’s coming from. Like either AV or maybe like…
Megan: Right. “Southern English” kind of thing.
Carrie: Or, Southern. Yeah. Southern English, which is very [crosstalk] in some properties are the same.
Mean: Yeah.
Carrie: Or like foreign sounding or something.
Megan: Especially since it completely makes my point for me.
Carrie: Yeah.
Megan: And that guy was a complete asshole. And I think, mostly I wanted to bring it up because I like calling people assholes, apparently. But also the point remains, I think, in a very good point. And we talked about it, in what episode 4? Being this kind of like, person that’s stuck on, “Good grammar.” Is not the cool thing that we thought it was in high school.
Carrie: Right.
Megan: Because I was there too. I was on that bus.
Carrie: Yeah, me too.
Megan: But it just doesn’t make you look good anymore. But I guess all we can do is notice it, recognize what it is, and call it out when we feel safe enough to do so.
Carrie: Yeah.
Megan: What a terrible comment.
Carrie: Yes. Yes.
Megan: Anyway, go away. Don’t even try.
Carrie: Yeah, like why? This is what I don’t understand. Like, why did he feel the need to try to dunk on you?
Megan: I don’t know. Well, to us, because it was [crosstalk] from The Vocal Fries.
Carrie: [inaudible] The Vocal Fries, but like, you’re the one who said it, so I don’t want to take credit for it.
Megan: Credit for your…
Carrie: Beautiful words.
Megan: Oh, thank you. Yes
Carrie: But like why did he feel the need to try to dunk on linguists? I sometimes think that people don’t realize that we are linguists though, like The Fries.
Megan: Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. I’m a really sensitive person, but that’s not going to make me feel bad. All right, well enjoy the episode.
Carrie: Okay. Today we have Nicole Horseherder. Diné, from Arizona, who got her master’s from the University of British Columbia when I was doing my undergrad, actually. So, we met back then. She works in her home community as an environmental activist. So, welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Horseherder: Thank you.
Megan: Hi. It’s so nice to meet you.
Carrie: Yeah. So, we have like… I don’t know, there’s lots of things we could cover. You’re a Diné bizaad speaker, or a Navajo speaker as it’s known to most people speaking English. How did you become a speaker?
Nicole: I became a speaker the way probably most native people become speakers. And when I’m talking about native, I’m referring to native as indigenous to the North Americas. And I think, the way that I feel like, the way that most people become speakers is just from family, from your mom, from your dad. I mean, my grandmother was monolingual. She spoke no English. And so, she spoke only one language, her language to me, and I needed a way to communicate with her, obviously. So, I picked up the language. I credit her to being able to pick up the language more so than say my mother. My mother had a college education and spoke a lot of English, was bilingual. But I really think that speaking and interacting with my grandmother is what really gave me a solid foundation in my language.
Carrie: Yeah.
Megan: It just sounds like a nice connection to have with your grandmother.
Carrie: Yeah.
Nicole: I think so. I was talking to just a local resident here in my hometown the other day, and she was saying that one of the things that they try not to, in her family, is to push kids off on their grandmothers. But immediately what came to mind was sometimes having grandparents in your home and being pushed off on them, actually for us as indigenous people of North America, actually is the gateway is the access to our language.
These are the people that speak it genuinely from the heart. It’s their first language. It’s the language of youth, that’s their language. And so, if anytime you can have that time with grandparents, you’re definitely going to have that connection with your language also.
Megan: Yeah,
Carrie: Yeah. That’s a really great point. Like our sort of the, our, as in white people’s like western notion of what that counts as family and how it should be this nuclear family, is actually kind of disruptive and not all that healthy. It is better to have the grandparents around for lots of reasons, but yeah. It’s, yeah. For language especially that’s really important.
Megan: I was wondering if for your grandma, for her generation, was it unique that she was monolingual?
Nicole: So, for a lot of grandparents, in my grandmother’s generation most, I would say 90% or more were probably monolingual.
Carrie: Wow.
Nicole: Of the very few that spoke English, they spoke it because they had maybe 1 or 2 years of western education. So, they knew the basics like they could get by with how much is this, and go over there, and come here, and things like that. A really functional type language they had it. But as far as like speaking conversation in the family, you would never know that they spoke a little bit of English, because they just… I think, Diné was their preferred language. And so, I mean, the times that I found out that my certain ones of my elders knew bits and pieces of English was when they spoke to the very young, young children, grandchildren that came like say for a visit from Phoenix or from some other big city and came for the holidays. You would actually hear them bust out words like, “Come here,” And then, you do this double tape like [inaudible]. That was the only time that I… That’s when I found out how many of my elders spoke a handful of English words. But definitely, in my grandmother’s time most elders, most people were monolingual.
Carrie: Wow. Yeah. It shows how fast the shift can be.
Megan: Right. And would this have been the same generation of the Navajo code talkers, which is how a lot of people know about Navajo, I think.
Nicole: My grandmother was not in the generation of the Navajo code talkers. My grandmother was 102 in 2007. She was at least 20 to 30 years older than the young men that went off to fight in World War II. So, most of those people in that generation, I mean, probably grew up speaking Navajo first and then learned English in school. And when they came home a lot of them, for them Navajo was, Diné was their primary language still. I mean, for a lot of people here, it’s still the primary language. You come, especially if you come here like say to my community, and I live in the countryside at the nearest town that I live in, it’s Pinon, Arizona. [inaudible] people in the grocery store, you’ll hear the cashier speak to you in Navajo [inaudible]. And so, I think it varies a little bit from place to place, but Navajo still is the primary language of the community here.
Carrie: That’s really great to hear, because it’s not the case in many places, as you know.
Megan: Yeah. It feels unique.
Carrie: Do your children also speak Diné?
Nicole: That’s a different story. And I wish I could say that it was not this way. My children got to hear the language from me, but they grew up in a household where they heard mom speaking both Diné and English. And I am sure that they picked up on the fact that I spoke Diné to family members, grandparents, like more of the elders. And then, they probably saw me speaking English more in like their school studying in the town, like at the some meetings, if I go to meetings. And then, of course, if I drive into the border towns, the little towns and cities that border our reservations, they heard me speak nothing but English.
Carrie: Right.
Nicole: So, definitely I see that that has an influence. On the other hand, my children have done well, and they have picked up a lot, and they can understand more than just basic language. They have more than just basic language skills. They can actually carry conversation and with elders. Mind you, it’s more functional, but their comprehension is very good. I can say almost anything to them in Diné, give instructions, explain something, and they pick up on it.
The oldest 2 are really very good. The younger 2, the fifth grader and the ninth grader, I have yet to see how well they can do. But I’m beginning to see my ninth grader emerging as somebody who also has a good comprehension ability. Now that’s far from where I want them to be. I want them to be able to converse with me and their dad. And it helps that their father is really speaks to them primarily in Diné. So, and expects an answer this the same way. And so they work hard to communicate back to their father in Diné. Now there’s other people in the family, like my brother, who absolutely demands a response in Diné, when he’s speaking to his kids. And so his kids, you can see them struggling for that answer as well. And so, it’s a good thing. I think that’s a good thing to watch your kids struggle like that. And then be able to help them a little bit here and there, and they’re getting there.
This is not the traditional way that language is acquired, but it is the way that they’re acquiring it today. Families who are conscientious of trying to pass the language to their kids, are trying… are doing it. A lot of them are doing it this way. I mean, they don’t have the accessibility that I had when I was young, just with a monolingual grandmother. And I never even knew where I began learning. It was seamless. The learning it just flowed. And it was every day, and the progression I couldn’t see it. And then, all of a sudden I was an adult and, I was speaking to community members, elders, and young. And so, I wish it was like that today, but it’s not. And so, it’s a lot of work to try to get our kids to a certain level.
Carrie: Yeah. It’s hard when English is so dominant everywhere.
Nicole: Yes. Yes. That’s the struggle.
Megan: What message do you think that your kids were picking up on, or what were they perceiving when they saw you in those spaces speaking English?
Nicole: I have no idea. And all I know and it’s based on my training at university training, and where we of course learned a little bit about how children acquire language and things like that. All I know is that I’m sure they heard me speaking, and they knew that that was the language to use when you were in those places, the places that I was using English language. But I think by far the biggest influence for them is school.
Carrie: Yeah.
Nicole: School is straight English. And I worked hard when I was an administrator at the local public schools here to try to bring Diné languages back into the classroom, and to try to give students more time with their language than just the 40 minutes, traditional. 40 minutes that was often given to, like say what you call electives here. They’re just kind of like the other classes, aside from the core, the main classes. Navajo was kind of pushed off as one of those types of classes. And so, our efforts have been to bring that class, that particular instruction back as a mainstream, a main course. That every student should have that.
And it’s a struggle because a lot of parents today are like, “I don’t send my kids to school to learn Diné. That should be learned at home.” But I as a parent, who struggles to instill the language in its wholeness and entirety into my children, I need the school’s help. If I’m going to give the school my children 8 hours a day, 6 to 8 hours a day, they’ve got to help me. I don’t want to be sending my child off for that long period, that duration, and not have them help me back with something that I feel like is important.
I mean, language here, Diné language is still alive. It functions every day in every part of our community. It functions in the schools, in the local government, in the clinics, in the law enforcement, everywhere. And the school would be wrong to think that only English education and English thoughts and processes is important. If we want our children to come back to this community and be functioning, productive citizens in this community, they have got to have their language. Now, who’s going to do that? Parents today cannot do it alone, especially if we are giving our kids for that amount of time to the local schools, but the schools have got to help us.
Carrie: Yeah. Agreed.
Megan: I thought that there was a school, maybe it’s near Flagstaff that has a lot of Diné. Like Diné is one of the foundational languages with English. Do you know anything about that or am I… Did I misremember?
Nicole: Well, there is a school in Flagstaff called Puente de Hózhó and…
Megan: Yeah, yeah.
Nicole: And the school is a bilingual education school meaning in this case it means their definition of that is that the children are in that school, start out like in a kindergarten level class with 100% Diné. And then, they move slowly towards 50%. And by the time they’re fifth grade, I think, it is either fifth grade or eighth grade, I can’t remember which one it was, but they were 50%. So, that just means that 50% of their instruction is in Navajo and 50% is in English. And so, they progress slowly towards 50% English Navajo. It has been reported that this school is successful. And it has been reported that they do produce children who have a good background in Diné language. More so in reading and writing than in actually speaking. What they’re finding out is that a lot of these students who attend this particular school are getting this instruction at school, but are not getting the reinforcement at home.
So, you have a situation where you have a lot of parents who don’t even speak Navajo in their home and as a primary language, sending their kids to school to try to get this kind of education. And then, it’s how do you say it defeats the purpose a little bit, because what the intention was is that parents who have some Navajo background, who speak the language are there to reinforce the language. And the child is able to come out at the end of this program, be actually being able to converse, read, and write. So, what they’re finding is that the reading and writing is strong, the comprehension and the speaking is weak. So, and this is a school in Flag. It’s one of our border towns to our reservation.
Now you’re talking about just one school. All schools, I believe, all schools on the reservation should have some program. And if schools like, say Pinon, where this community that I am from, if they could implement something like that, you would have an outcome that is way different than Puente de Hózhó. You would have the outcome that I think was intended. And that is to have fluent speakers strong in reading and writing with strong English speaking abilities also. You would have a true bilingual child who’s able to speak and speak in both language at the same level.
Why am I saying that? I’m saying that because being raised by a monolingual speaker, having gone through the school system when I graduated from high school. So, I was done with 12th grade. I had a better English speaking ability. I could read and write English. My Navajo, my Diné was probably at like, say eighth grade, maybe. It’s hard to say, but I know I wasn’t at the same level as my English abilities. It wasn’t until I came home that I made a conscious effort to immerse myself back in the community, speak to elders. It was painful, you know?. And I’m finally at this place where I can interpret ideas and information back and forth. And so, I know that my mind is able to go back and forth, and it’s pretty much I have the same ability in both language. But it wasn’t until I did work on my own, and my linguistics background by far has been the biggest asset to this.
Carrie: Yeah. Plug for linguistics.
Nicole: Yes. Yeah, linguistics.
Carrie: Why is Diné important to you being able to speak it? Like, why that other people are speaking it, why is that important?
Nicole: I think, one of the reasons it’s important is because it was one of my… It was probably my first way of communication. It’s my eyes to the world. It’s how I see things. It’s how I think about things. It’s how new thoughts and new ideas come to my mind. It’s how I… Like in right now, I’m working on environmental issues. And sometimes we all… We tend to look at things just through science from a theoretical perspective or just from a science perspective. And we don’t often think about things through a spiritual or a indigenous perspective. And my language gives me those realizations. I’m able to see things and strategize, like solutions and pathways to a goal using my language. Definitely, there’s no way English could do this for me. There’s no way that this common language that we speak here now in Western, in the Americas would do that for me.
It’s the key to… It’s the answer to the many unanswered… It’s the key to many unanswered questions that we have both Diné and English. And no matter what background you come from the answer to life and the challenges we face today are not easily arrived at, if you just have one language behind you. It’s much better. For me, I’ve been able to solve problems here for the nation, because I have this wonderful and this strong background in my own language.
Carrie: Can you give us an example of that? Like, that is just so beautiful. But I’d be interested to know, like is there a particular example of where you had to think in this more Diné way that you can somehow translate into English?
Nicole: Okay. So, like for a long time when I first started this work, we were doing what’s called resolution, which is like a draft form of legislation. And what we were doing was we were taking all this scientific data that we had, and there was a lot of it. There was a pretty good amount of it. And we were using it to state our case in this issue that we had at that time to protect our water resources. Our water resources, our water was being used for industry purposes. And industry was saying things, using scientific arguments to say that there’s no impact to the water, and that there’s no impact to the aquifers. And that there’s so much water in these aquifers that taking water from it for industry, especially the amount of water they were taking, was like taking 1 cup away from out of a 55 gallon barrels. So, in other words, there was minimal impact. “And what are you all, you natives crying about? You guys are making… You guys are blowing this up. You guys are exaggerating the issue.” And that industry’s not going to have impact on the people, and their life ways, and the environment, and blah, blah, blah.
So we worked hard and focused, put a lot of effort into gathering the data and arranging it in an argument format, and putting it onto these resolutions they’re called, and getting them passed. So, the one thing we were missing from this thing, and as we’re going from community to community to get community of people support for this effort. And the effort was to get industry off the water, because what we were saying that there were impacts to the water was in direct opposite to what they were saying. So here we’re opposing industry. This thing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars for the nation. Money, of course, we never see it, goes to the central government, and some jobs, a handful of jobs.
And so, we were up against this huge corporation that had economists, and hydrologists, and all these people, experts, “Experts,” in their offices, writing up stuff for them. And us as local organizations, and me being one of the leader; Well, being in a leadership position. I was using my Western training and background to draft up these resolutions and using nothing but scientific and data. So, I was approaching this completely from a Western perspective. And at some point, and I continued to consult with elders, I continued to speak to them. And it dawned on me one day that I’m not even using the knowledge, the ancient knowledge that we have of our water system, our understanding of the land, who we are; And how we make our living on this land; And why the water resources; Why industry needs to get off the water resources, because it’s impacting our livelihood.
I’m not even using that information, that knowledge, and the teachings that go with it, and all that should be written side by side with all this other scientific data that I was like really quick to just flop onto the paper. And I was speaking only from that perspective. And so, I was losing half my audience all the time. And not only that, but I was not convincing elected leaders that were in, like say, minerals department and water department, and are the, within the Navajo Nation government, which is very much structured like the federal government is, the United States government is. So, these guys that have these engineers, and these geologists, and hydrologists non-native; They have our central government stacked with these people. And I wasn’t breaking through; I wasn’t making any way; I wasn’t gaining anything with them either; I wasn’t making any leeway with them either.
And so, I came back around, revamped this thing that I was doing a lot of writing, and I revamped it. And I put at the very beginning that we live by natural law, and our fundamental Diné law says that water talk is the cornerstone of Diné lifeways. It is the way to our… The way we see our place and our existence on this earth in our homeland that… And so on and so forth. And it went on and on and on. By the end, I had going back and forth with elders and they were saying, “Okay, add this one. We are leaving this out. You’re leaving the fact that water is powerful. It can take life, it can give life, it can take your life, such as the ocean. You’re not respectful. You don’t have the right equipment. It can take your life. It can consume you. On the other hand, that drop that drink of pristine, clean water can give you health, and is in fact the key to health and can revive you. It can save your life.”
Those kinds of teachings needed to be in this document for people to understand that we can’t sell our water anymore. We can’t afford in this arid landscape that we live in to give any drop more to industry. That if we’re going to survive in this place in the future, knowing the way that water exists here. Based on our ancient knowledge, that we have to manage it differently, use it differently, think about it differently, make that connection with our water once more, and begin to use it in a different manner. Because the way that Western society uses water is just pure economic development. Water is money. It’s something that you can put a dollar sign to, dollar figure to. Water is used to spray all over people’s yards. It’s used to flush waste down the toilet.
That way of thinking is not our way of thinking. We have to change the way we think about water. And here we were marching along and following this western thought and western perspective, and doing what these hydrologists and economists within the Navajo government were telling us was right. And fundamentally, we knew it was wrong. And so my language helped me make those connections again. And it brought back out the fundamental law of our people and helped us to reconnect with our relationship to our, these life-giving elements of water, land, the energy from the sun, and the air. And so… Sorry, I just went off on that.
Megan: No, that was awesome.
Carrie: No. That great. That was great. Yeah.
Nicole: I hope that clarifies that, though.
Carrie: Absolutely. No, that was really beautiful. I mean, anyone who lives in Arizona should be aware of like how important water is, but like, to put it into those terms it is…. Yeah. That’s really important. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.
Megan:: Yeah, thank you.
Nicole: Yes. You’re welcome.
Megan: I was just wondering what you thought about these kind of, I don’t know mainstream is the right word, but these kind of efforts by, like Rosetta Stone has Diné… A program now for Diné, to learn Diné. Finding Nemo is in Diné now. What do you think about these efforts to get Diné out into the world?
Nicole: I’m not sure. I think, at the very least, they’re to me, they’re cute. My kids haven’t watched. I hope I heard the question right. You’re asking this, what I think about different uses of media, like Finding Nemo, how that was translated to Navajo, right?
Megan: Yes, yes, yes.
Nicole: Yeah. To say at the very least, they’re cute.
Megan: Yeah.
Nicole: My children have never really seen it. When my children hear movies like this, they laugh, it makes them laugh. And they like to repeat a lot of the lines and… But how much language do they pick up from it? I don’t know. Does it reinforce? I don’t know. I think it’s valuable project for the sake of seeing how, what our language looks like in that kind of a study. It’s a very un-Navajo setting to be in the [inaudible]
Megan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Nicole: It’s a very un-Diné setting to be in the deep, within the ocean. So…
Megan: Yes.
Nicole: I don’t know. I think they’re cute projects, if you have the money for it, that’s great. If I had the same amount of money, I probably would use it differently. I would probably have like summer immersion camps where kids did like some hiking, and looking for dyes and medicines, and taking horse rides, and learning horsemanship from Navajo… from a Diné perspective that kind of thing. That’s probably what I would do. I don’t know.
Carrie: Yeah, that’s a good point. I think that’s really important. Whenever I think about, especially like the school system, it is very white. It’s a very European way of looking at the world. And it’s also not that effective for teaching kids. But like, going out into the world and like learning how the world actually works, doing projects that you want to do, like the kids want to do, it’s much more effective. So yeah, I would be on board with that.
Megan also brought up Rosetta Stone, and also Duolingo also has a program now where you can… I’m going to use quotation marks, “Learn Diné”. I use that quotation marks because I haven’t checked out Rosetta Stone, but the Duolingo is incredibly difficult to use, because they introduced these words that are like very long. And so, you have to learn the writing system really quickly in order to use it, because it’s a writing based App. And so, even me who has some understanding of Diné, like very, very basic, but some, found it difficult to use. So, I can’t imagine knowing 0 and trying to use it. Have you seen either of these, Nicole?
Nicole: I’ve not seen Duolingo, but I have actually used Rosetta Stone. As an administrator, I brought Rosetta Stone into the school and had kids use it one summer. And actually, 2 years in a row they were able to use it. But I left the school after that, so I don’t know what the usage is now. But so, during the time that I was using it, I liked Rosetta Stone.
Rosetta Stone… Are you interested to, I only had the first and second portions of the program. I have not looked at if there’s been others developed after that. I haven’t seen it. But what I did see from the very first 2 installments, was that kids, like say, who have some basic, basic, Diné background, could like say a third grader could actually go in, sit down to the program, and really get a good handle on plural… singular and plural [crosstalk] Diné language.
Megan: Cool.
Nicole: And could see how verbs are conjugated.
Carrie: Oh, that’s hard.
Megan: Yeah.
Nicole: And of the big broad category of verbs that Diné language had, this was just like a little intro. So, I would definitely… I could see that maybe the next installations of the program would probably be more of the same. And I’m not sure what kind of things they would’ve added in addition to that. But I mean, just from what I saw, it was a good start. It was a start that made sense. It definitely focused on the verb, which is important. And that’s how kids learn naturally here. And they learn truncated versions of the verb. They don’t, not the stem itself is not necessarily truncated. I mean, it’d be hard to do that, but they learn truncated verb forms of the verb. And then, of course, as they get older, the additional prefixes that are, like I said, for lack of a better term, truncated, like because we’re cutting it off and we’re… but we’re making sure that we say that the verb stem, clearly. And then, all the rest of the stuff that goes before we’re kind of like… I’m sure it’s systematic, how we leave certain ones in and take certain ones out. But I haven’t studied that yet.
But I mean, so then we’re, as they get older, we’re making sure that more of those are pronounced along with the stem. And then, at some age they hear the whole thing and there’s no taking anything off for them to help them. But I mean, that’s how little kids learn. So, I mean, it’s pretty much in that same idea, I guess. So, from what I saw, Rosetta Stone was a good start.
Carrie: I have heard good things about it that it’s possibly the best one. So, that’s cool. I’m glad that it is helping them.
Megan: Yeah. That’s good to hear.
Carrie: Yeah, it’s really good to hear.
Megan: Yeah.
Carrie: And yeah, just for people who don’t know anything about Diné or Athabaskan languages. Yeah, the verb is very important. Kind of different from English. English is like very noun prominent. And the structure, I’ll put up a little thing about the verb structure, because it’s complicated. Anyway, I think that’s all the questions I have. Do you have any more questions, Megan?
Megan: No, this was great. I really appreciated hearing from you, Nicole.
Carrie: Yeah, me too.
Nicole: Yeah, this was fun.
Carrie: Yeah, [crosstalk] [inaudible]
Megan: [inaudible] Yeah.
Carrie: Is there anything you want to leave our listeners with?
Nicole: I don’t know, other than I’m assuming the listeners are interested in languages. And I think that’s still one of the unexplored places, and there’s a lot of space to explore languages. And I hope that there’s continued support and for language learning and language study.
Carrie: Yeah, me too.
Nicole: I mean, You would never think that, like I thought, I’m coming home, and I’m going to teach at a local community college. And I’m going to teach Diné language and maybe linguistics 1 and 2, something like that. I would’ve never known that I was going to come home and just be thrown into the community and be helping with just an endless amount of community issues. And it’s all because we’re trying to survive in this. We’re a nation within a nation. And we’re 2 different cultures that constantly clash in policy, and philosophy, and teaching and way of life. And how do we coexist? And I never thought that I would be using my language to build bridges and help solve enormous problems that we have as indigenous communities in America.
Carrie: Yeah, that’s also beautiful. And it’s so true. Language is so important to bridging those gaps.
Megan: We always leave our listeners with one final message. Don’t be an asshole.
Carrie: Don’t be an asshole.
Megan: Jinx.
Carrie: All right. Well, thank you again, Nicole.
Megan: Thank you so much, Nicole.
Nicole: Thank you.
Carrie: I hope I’ll see you in April.
Nicole: Okay, we’ll see you.
Carrie: The Vocal Fries Podcast is produced by me, Carrie Gillon for Halftone Audio. Theme music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram @vocalfriespod. You can email us at vocalfriespod@gmail.com and our website is vocalfriespod.com.
The Vocal Fries Pod 